There's a group out there calling itself Muslims Against Sharia, claiming it has the prescription for what constitutes a moderate Muslim.
Now, as you might expect, I'm seeing all kinds of problems with this group and its claims. The basic question that comes to mind is whether this group subscribes to the Five Pillars of Islam. If it does, we have a problem. If it doesn't, we have a problem. In any event, we have a problem.
On the other hand, one might look on this group and/or its leader as the new 'prophet' through which Allah has chosen to abrogate his former revelations which came by way of what was supposed to be his final prophet and messenger, Mohammed, according to Islamic tradition. In other words, the group, in order to fulfill its vision of Islam (which I'm calling Non-Islam Islam) it would have to be successful in carrying out a major Islam-wide plot of deception, basically claiming that Allah never endorsed the violent nature of Islam, and certainly never meant to transmit this false endorsement through his final prophet, Mohammed. Many, many revisions to the Quran would have to be made, and so on and so forth. More problems than I can detail here.
We've been discussing this over at Brave New World Watch. So if anyone has anything to add to the discussion, that might be the place to go. But you're certainly welcome to post a comment here if you like.
Friday, November 2, 2007
Moderate Muslims Found!
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26 comments:
"The basic question that comes to mind is whether this group subscribes to the Five Pillars of Islam."
We do subscribe to the Five Pillars of Islam. Which one do you have a problem with? None of the Five Pillars present any danger to a non-Muslim world. The root of the problem is the concept of Islamic superiority, which has nothing to do with the Five Pillars. As long as the superiority concept (and everything that is derived from it) is abolished, Islam will become a truly peaceful religion.
1. I have a problem with no. 1.
2. How do you propose to abolish the superiority concept so essential to Islam? Would you propose also to abolish the concept in Christianity which teaches that Christ is God the Son, and everything that is derived from it?
If you don't believe Islam is a superior religion to all others, then how can you call yourself a Muslim? How can you subscribe to the first pillar of Islam which is founded on the idea that Islam is the one true religion; Allah's final revelation through his final prophet Mohammed?
Were the superiority concept abolished, then Islam would become an impotent religion. You really believe that this is acceptable to most Muslims, or that it ever will be?
-Terry
"How" is also the big question that I have hanging out there.
-MT
Ok MAS, you're not doing much to convince me that you're a serious person here.
I ask how you propose to abolish the superiority concept in Islam, and you answer that it isn't that hard when you consider your religion a private matter? I consider my relationship with my God to be a private matter. I also consider the Christian religion to be superior to Islam, Christ to Mohammed, and so on and so forth. That's the reason I consider Christ's religion the best religion for me. That's what it means when you consider one religion to be the best religion for you, that you think it is superior to all others.
You act as though there's something wrong with someone considering his religion to be superior to all others. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and that's not the problem with Islam anyway.
You wrote:
"If YOU are a Christian, than Christ is God the Son for YOU. The fact that you believe in it and I don't does not make YOU better than ME."
I don't know what that has to do with the question I asked, so you'll have to help me out here. What are you getting at in that response?
You wrote:
"That's bunch of crap. If you're white and do not consider white race as superior, does it make you any less white?"
Again, I don't know what my skin color, or my belief about whether it is superior or not has to do with the question.
The analogy doesn't work because we're talking about two completely different things. You're talking about skin color which is a physical aspect that I have no control over short of a physical alteration. I'm talking about a belief one has concerning his religion; a belief he must hold concerning it in order to truly embrace the teachings of the religion itself above the teachings of all others. I can say the words "I'm black" a million times. It won't darken the tone of my skin in the least. But the way to make a belief system less potent is to dilute its teachings and its traditions, or to ignore them. That's what you're effectively calling for, is it not?
-TM
TM,
"I also consider the Christian religion to be superior to Islam, Christ to Mohammed, and so on and so forth."
If you are a Christian and consider Christianity superior to Islam, it means that that you consider Christians superior to Muslims. That would make you a bigot and I won't waste my time explaining anything to you. If you think that Christianity is the best religion for you, than it is a private matter. It cannot be both.
"You act as though there's something wrong with someone considering his religion to be superior to all others."
Absolutely
"There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and that's not the problem with Islam anyway."
You are 100% wrong.
"Again, I don't know what my skin color, or my belief about whether it is superior or not has to do with the question."
Then you probably need to understand a concept of superiority. The concept of superiority with Islamic overtones means: "I am a Muslim and you are not, therefore I am better than you are. My superiority gives me the right kill or enslave you."
"The analogy doesn't work because we're talking about two completely different things."
It absolutely works. Racial supremacists will treat you differently because of your skin color. Religious supremacists will treat you differently because of your creed.
"But the way to make a belief system less potent is to dilute its teachings and its traditions, or to ignore them. That's what you're effectively calling for, is it not?"
No. We are trying to revert Islam to its non-violent roots.
MAS wrote:
If you are a Christian and consider Christianity superior to Islam, it means that that you consider Christians superior to Muslims. That would make you a bigot and I won't waste my time explaining anything to you. If you think that Christianity is the best religion for you, than it is a private matter. It cannot be both.
I want to be sure I'm getting this reasoning straight, the language is a little ambiguous. It cannot be both a private matter and a matter of which belief system is the superior one, right? Both belief systems are and must be equal ... in the eyes of all. And that would include God, right?
For the time being and for the most part, I'll let the charge of bigotry slide. Most of us around these parts know that once you make a leap like that and start casting about accusations of bigotry and racism and whatnot, you've already lost the argument and are looking for the quickest and easiest way out. Just like MAS is now trying to bail on this discussion. And how did he set that up? By calling me a bigot and announcing that he won't waste his time trying to explain anything to a bigot. You lib ... people (oh, I forgot, saying you people is another indication that I'm a bigot, that's right), ummm, I mean people like MAS are so predictable it isn't funny.
But MAS, let me explain something to you. If in your eyes my holding the Christian religion to be superior to Islam makes me a bigot, there's nothing I can do about that. If you choose not to engage this discussion further on that basis, there's nothing I can do about that either, short of recanting the position that Christianity is superior to Islam, which aint ever going to happen.
But let me ask you this, on the slim chance that you might actually address the question: What do you think should be done with people like me who are so obviously bigots? If this bigotry I and others like me exude catches on, what do you think would be a proper response to it?
-TM
P.S. The peace symbol in place of the star in your icon is ... perfect.
"Both belief systems are and must be equal ... in the eyes of all. And that would include God, right?"
Correct, especially considering that Yahweh of the Bible and Allah of the Koran is the same God. But even if we compare Christianity with paganism (Hinduism), superiority means bigotry.
"For the time being and for the most part, I'll let the charge of bigotry slide."
You shouldn't. As I said before, If you consider Christianity superior to other religions, you consider yourself superior to non-Christians, which makes you a bigot. You can keep telling yourself that it isn't true, but the fact remains that it is. Luckily for the world, Christian superiority has not created too many problems lately. Islamic superiority has, that is why we are fighting to eliminate it.
"Most of us around these parts know that once you make a leap like that and start casting about accusations of bigotry and racism and whatnot, you've already lost the argument and are looking for the quickest and easiest way out. Just like MAS is now trying to bail on this discussion. And how did he set that up? By calling me a bigot and announcing that he won't waste his time trying to explain anything to a bigot."
If you cannot understand that considering yourself superior to other people makes you a bigot, you must be not that bright. This explanation meant as a description, not an insult.
"If in your eyes my holding the Christian religion to be superior to Islam makes me a bigot, there's nothing I can do about that."
That's not true. Bigotry comes from ignorance and ignorance can be cured with education.
"What do you think should be done with people like me who are so obviously bigots? If this bigotry I and others like me exude catches on, what do you think would be a proper response to it?"
As I mentioned above, education is the best antidote to bigotry.
"The peace symbol in place of the star in your icon is ... perfect."
Thank you. We thought it would be the most fitting symbol for our mission.
MAS, your inconsistencies and blatant contradictions are so elementary that they're laughable.
Obviously what you're saying is that a non-violent Islam is better (i.e., Superior) than a violent Islam. If you believe in a superior Islam (a non-violent Sharia rejecting Islam, as opposed to the violent Sharia embracing Islam), then this makes you a bigot by your reasoning.
Furthermore, the God of the Bible and the God of the Quran are not the same God. Orthodox Muslims are strict monotheists. Orthodox Christians, by contrast, believe that Jesus is equally God and man and that the holy ghost is God the Spirit, or, the doctrine of the trinity -- one essence in three persons.
If you are any kind of a Muslim at all, you simply cannot believe this. But irregardless of what you truly believe theologically, you must believe, and you show yourself to believe, if you're sincere, that your stated philosophy is better than (superior to) the orthodox Christian and the orthodox Muslim philosophy. Which, again, according to your goofy reasoning, would make you a bigot.
But you've said all that needs be said in this statement:
"Luckily for the world, Christian superiority has not created too many problems lately. Islamic superiority has, that is why we are fighting to eliminate it."
Anyone who wishes to dismantle these statements, be my guest. But I'll just leave them highlighted for now for y'all to think on the implications thereof.
-TM
"MAS, your inconsistencies and blatant contradictions are so elementary that they're laughable. Obviously what you're saying is that a non-violent Islam is better (i.e., Superior) than a violent Islam."
You must be too dense to understand simple concepts. Non-violent Islam is better for me. Violent Islam (apparently) is better for Islamists. I couldn't care less about radical Muslims and their belief in Islamic superiority, if it did not affect me.
"Furthermore, the God of the Bible and the God of the Quran are not the same God. Orthodox Muslims are strict monotheists. Orthodox Christians, by contrast, believe that Jesus is equally God and man and that the holy ghost is God the Spirit, or, the doctrine of the trinity -- one essence in three persons."
Let me clarify my statement. Yahweh of the Torah and Allah of the Koran is the same God. Feel better now.
"your stated philosophy is better than (superior to) the orthodox Christian and the orthodox Muslim philosophy."
It is better for me as a personal matter. As a public matter they are all equal. Let me try to explain it so even you may comprehend it. If I wear a size 10 shoe, size 10 is better for me. I don't think that size 10 is better in general. If you think that your religion is better for you, there is nothing wrong with that. If you think that your religion is better for everybody, you are a bigot.
"You must be too dense to understand simple concepts. Non-violent Islam is better for me. Violent Islam (apparently) is better for Islamists. I couldn't care less about radical Muslims and their belief in Islamic superiority, if it did not affect me."
Oh, ok. Silly me. You care enough about it (only because it affects you) to, how did you put it?, "fight to eliminate it." On the other hand you don't care anything about it at all as long as it doesn't affect you.
Now, look, either you want to fight to eliminate it, or you want to fight to isolate it from yourself, if you truly want to "fight" it at all. Which is it? These terms do not mean the same thing. But the concept of superiority, irregardless of how you try to worm your way out of it, still applies in your case.
You can call me a bigot as many times as you like. It isn't going to change anything.
-TM
"You care enough about it (only because it affects you) to, how did you put it?, "fight to eliminate it." On the other hand you don't care anything about it at all as long as it doesn't affect you."
When innocent people around the world get blown up, it affect me.
"You can call me a bigot as many times as you like. It isn't going to change anything."
At least we agree on something. Can I also call you an idiot while I'm at it?
MAS, you can call me anything you like. The more names you call me (the more emotional outbursts from you), the weaker your position and the stronger my position.
Your liberalism (which is an irrational belief system) has undone you, not me. But I imagine I'm speaking a whole different language than you in this regard, so I'll leave it at that, and wish you the best.
-TM
Logic is no friend to ideologues. Brain damaged Conservatives always call us Liberals. Brain damaged Liberals always call us Conservatives. Conservatives and Liberals who are not blinded by their ideology, understand that we cannot be both, that's why they don't call us either.
If someone is too dense to comprehend a concept of bigotry (or just look up the definition in a dictionary), it is not a stretch to call him an idiot.
"Conservatives and Liberals who are not blinded by their ideology, understand that we cannot be both, that's why they don't call us either."
They don't call you either because they don't know the difference, nor do you.
We can keep this up as long as you want. I'll never tire of it.
-TM
1. So, in your professional opinion, if we a Liberals, we cannot be Neocon conspiracy at the same time, right?
2. Does discrimination based on religious creed constitute bigotry?
Yeses or nos would suffice.
"So, in your professional opinion, if we a Liberals, we cannot be Neocon conspiracy at the same time, right?"
Huh? What difference does it make in this context whether you can be both or not? And why are you trying to confuse the issue by asking such a question? I've never said you were a neocon conspiracy. I have said that you are a liberal IF you're being honest with us, which we cannot know. In other words, the question has no basis in this context, so what was the point of your asking it? (that's a rhetorical question)
As for conspiracy theories, I don't put a whole lot of stock in the vast majority of them.
"Does discrimination based on religious creed constitute bigotry?"
The all-encompassing ideology of liberalism teaches the doctrine of non-discriminationism, not conservatism. That's why I say you are a liberal, because you hold to this fallacious doctrine. No well ordered society at any level can not discriminate between good and evil, right and wrong, truth and untruth, legitimate and illegitimate government and religion.
Do I believe that my person is superior to your person? No. Do I believe that Christ's religion is superior to Mohammed's religion? Yes. Do I believe that a biblical-Christian world and life view is superior to a Quranic-Mohammed world and life view? Yes. Do I believe that Islam is incompatible with Western civilization? Absolutely! If that makes me a bigot in your view, then so be it.
"Yeses or nos would suffice."
Look, this is my space which I created with my own hands. What that means is that I'm the king of the castle around here. And I'll determine, particularly when I'm doing the writing, whether a yes or no response will suffice. I'll advise you not to come in here trying to throw your insignificant weight around again.
-TM
"Do I believe that my person is superior to your person? No. Do I believe that Christ's religion is superior to Mohammed's religion? Yes."
I know it is hard, but try to concentrate. Do you know what "mutually exclusive" means.
No need for an essay.
1. Apparently you're learning that the more you speak the more you twist yourself up in knots. That's good.
2. I invite you to educate me on what is meant by the term "mutually exclusive." But tread lightly. How's that?
3. This is the second time I've warned you about throwing your weight around in here. If you're going to continue to attempt to throw around your insignificant weight, on top of being insulting and belligerent, as any good liberal would do, then I have no use for you. I can put up with your insults and your belligerence, but even I have a tolerance threshhold. Don't push it.
-TM
LOL
MAS, you're completely unhinged, as I suspected. As I said before, it is your liberalism that has undone you, not me. But you direct your anger at me, not at the source of your problems. Typical liberal.
What I meant by "tread lightly" was to be careful in your explanation of the term "mutually exclusive." I already knew you couldn't explain it to me without twisting yourself all up in tighter and tighter knots, which is the reason I asked you to explain it to me rather than answer the question, which, again, is meaningless in this context.
Now, I may or may not do a full post on this later, I haven't decided yet. But I need to inform you that I'll have to remove your last comments as posted, and repost them with attribution and cleaned up a bit.
Now begone child.
-Terry
Ladies and gentlemen, and all polite company. MAS has shown himself to not only be an insulting belligerent liberal during the course of this conversation, but also to be an unhinged foul-mouth, among other things. I figured that at some point the conversation would degenerate to this. It just looked like it was headed in that direction.
But as I said in a comment in a related thread over at BNWW, I didn't want to deprive MAS of the rope with which to hang himself. This is the problem with liberals, if you give 'em enough rope they will eventually hang themselves. You don't have to do anything except to keep feeding them the rope. Posted below are MAS's last comments to this thread, which I was forced to remove and clean up a bit:
You do not understand what bigotry means. You don't understand what mutually exclusive means. You cannot even answer a yes or no question. I think it is reasonable to conclude that you are a f-ing moron. lightly enough for you, a**wipe?
Why did MAS resort to this? Why didn't he just honor my request and explain to me what he thinks the term "mutually exclusive" means, and how it applies in this context? I think we all know why.
And this guy's going to reform the religion of Islam. **rolls eyes**
-TM
Shall I continue to hold my breath?
*passes out, breathes normal, returns to consciousness*
Bad idea, I guess. Here's the best part of the whole thing. Question: let's say for a moment that I'm a Christian that believes in the superiority of Islam; what does this make me?
-MT
(A: an idiot)
MAS, don't you have more important things to do, like, say, leading the reformation of Islam?
Oh boys. I have been reading some of this exchange and see how it has decompensated into a pissing contest. This is unfortunate though understandable. I have a thought. How about we all agree to disagree and then move on to the meat of the matter, which, as I see it,is this. Heinous activity is being conducted in the name of Islam. MAS wants to hold onto those aspects of Islam that he holds dear,while jettisoning others that create and support this horror. What's wrong with that? Let him and you, Terry Morris, hold fast to your belief that your religion is superior, as long as you don't kill the other for having that belief.
Simple. Be a bigot but keep acting on it to yourselves. Then, it really IS a private matter.
Just my 2 cents....
TM,
"don't you have more important things to do"
Yes, hence the reference to wasting my time.
Anonymous,
I have absolutely no problem with TM being a bigot as long as his bigotry does not manifest itself in actions.
Anon,
You seem like a nice enough person, so I'll cut you a little slack. But you misunderstand what the meat of the matter is. And this conversation did not "decompensate?" into a p*ssing match, as you say. I simply can't let you get away with that. What happened was that MAS progressively unraveled on us because he's driven primarily by passion.
The meat of the matter is this, the post itself is about moderate Muslims; whether they exist. What MAS is advocating is not Islam. A Muslim being someone who is a follower of the religion of Islam, MAS, if he's being honest with us, is not a Muslim at all. At best, if he's being honest with us, MAS is an admirer of the good qualities in Mohammed's religion, and he rejects all the bad stuff. That's fine'n'all, but it doesn't make him a moderate Muslim, and it certainly doesn't change the facts about Islam. Nor does it change the fact that MAS believes in the superiority of his views, which, when the concept is applied in my case, according to MAS, it makes me a bigot. But when the same concept is applied in his case (and he absolutely believes this, he doesn't deceive me), well, then, he's not a bigot, he's a pure and noble humanitarian, albeit one driven by emotion and passion, an insulting and a belligerent one, and a foul mouth t'boot. Well, you see, some of us are not so blinded by the fallacious doctrine of liberalism that we can't see through that facade.
MAS,
I don't want you to waste any more of your valuable time - and you're definately wasting your time trying to convince me that you've found the cure-all for the problems inherent to Islam - so I'll inform you that your coming back is not necessary. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that earlier.
-TM
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